MJ calls what happened to her in Zion national park “small ‘T’ trauma”. She knows women have experienced worse from their partners. But she still feels the anger of being left behind on a hike by her now ex. “It brings up stuff in my body that maybe I have not cleared out yet,” she said.
Five years ago, MJ and a new partner – he was not exactly her boyfriend, and the pair were not exclusive – traveled from Los Angeles to Utah for an adventure getaway. MJ, who is 38 and works in PR, was looking forward to exploring Zion’s striking scenery; its vast sandstone canyon and pristine wading trails were on the list. But on the morning of their big hike, MJ was not feeling well. She could not shake the feeling that something was “off”; indeed, MJ would learn on this trip that her partner was seeing other women.
As they made their way up Angel’s Landing, MJ’s partner started walking faster than her. “I could tell it was getting on his nerves that I was slow,” she said. “I was like, ‘Fuck it, just go ahead of me.’” He did without hesitation.
When she caught up at the top of the mountain, they took a picture together. Then her partner hiked down the mountain with a woman he had met on the way up, leaving MJ to finish by herself. They broke up shortly after that trip. (MJ asked to be referred to by her initials for the sake of speaking openly about a past relationship.)
Last month, MJ opened TikTok and heard the phrase “alpine divorce”, a label she now attaches to her experience in Zion.
MJ and a new partner – he was not exactly her boyfriend, and the pair were not exclusive…[MJ] could not shake the feeling that something was “off”; indeed, MJ would learn on this trip that her partner was seeing other women.
This is like saying you agreed to go dutch on a date, and then feeling that something was “off” because you couldn’t shake the feeling he was intending to split the bill.
No shit?
Some people, not anyways men, have been taught, rather mercilessly, that they have to be self sufficient. These people get aggravated, even angry when someone else fails to live up to the standard that they (unfairly) were forced to. There can be an instinctive feeling that it is somehow an injustice to them.
That doesn’t excuse abandoning someone in the wilderness. Often these people struggle to learn to be a kind helper.
Also, none of this is meant to excuse the behavior. It is possible to understand “why” without condoning it. When confronting this it is important to be firm that it is unacceptable, as well as understanding that it may be a struggle to relearn.
Co-opting alpine divorce, which regularly involves a murder attempt, feels weird? Just call it the sierra split.
I do wonder how much of this is a cheapening of the weekend getaway, where you’d go to a B&B upstate, find out your potential partner snores, drinks to much, is rude to service workers, or views a toothbrush as optional. You’d sigh and split. It’s just a bad weekend.
But with this, camping and hiking is a complication. You’re drinking warm filtered water from a Nalgene, eating granola because someone forgot to bring a lighter. Also, it’s raining and all your socks are wet. Did you bring anything to wash dishes? Ah, there are no dishes. You smell like smoke and are covered in sand.
Granted, you can do camping/hiking well, but I’d bet some of these cases are from people doing it poorly, trying to save a buck by avoiding more expensive weekend getaways.
Balanced take. This kind of thing is very veryserious. But also a dilution of the term Alpine Divorce, which people have died from.
Some of these comments are absolutely disgusting, many of you guys desperately need to talk to a therapist. If you read a story like this and feel the need to defend your gender identity, you have some deep-seated insecurity which you should take seriously before it starts harming your relationships with others. I am saying this as a man who had deep-seated insecurity which took a heavy toll on my relationships before seeking years of therapy. It’s not as expensive as it sounds, I promise, and it could totally change your life for the better.
I know this isn’t really the same, but the article struck a chord with me and the experiences I have with my fiance. She convinced me to buy and play Arc Raiders. (It’s an extraction shooter.) This isn’t the type of game I normally play. I am not good. She made a run for an extraction point, and didn’t wait for me to be in the elevator before pressing the button to extract, leaving me stranded with the enemy everywhere. (She’s run way ahead of me in game before and I’ve taken issue with it and explained I feel abandoned when she runs way ahead without me.) The last time we played, I happened to make it to the elevator before her, and I made a point to say, “are you in the elevator,” before pressing the god damned button.
Obviously, I wasn’t in real danger, but those experiences have made me wary of depending on her.
Articles like this are 99% trash
So are some comments.
So two or three “credible” stories over a century qualify for this headline? Seems a bit inflated.
I mean… it’s not a nice thing to do to someone but… eh…
I’d agree, and this sounds more of a failure of communication and expectation setting from the get go, from both parties.
Why would the woman in the story have to express that she expects her partner to hike with her the whole time?
Edit: Who are all you men who think that it’s acceptable to abandon your hiking partner while on a hike?? What the fuck is happening here?
Because it obviously wasn’t clear to her partner. Instead of assuming, communicate. Women do this often and yes I’m generalizing but men aren’t mind readers. Different people will have different expectations unless you talk and agree.
Why didn’t these men communicate to their partner that they no longer wanted to hike with them?
How is it not clear that when planning a hike where there is only 2 people, that the assumption is those 2 people stay together unless there’s an emergency?
That’s the whole issue here, right? Why are these men deciding on their own that they no longer want to hike with these women and are abandoning them on the mountain? Why didn’t these men communicate with their partner?
You are again assuming. It’s obvious you shouldn’t. The confusion is your own.
What is everyone’s problem with women sharing these stories though? We’re not allowed to speak about these instances because you decided it doesn’t happen frequently enough?
That’s not what I’m saying. Don’t make it about something it’s not.
If something happens a handful of times… it’s barely a story.
That’s literally what your comment is saying - that this type of abuse doesn’t happen enough to warrant attention. Why do you have a problem with women sharing stories like this?
Apparently you can’t read.
I think sharing is fine, and the actions of these boys are deplorable. But the story makes it out to be a major trend, instead of just sharing the stories. And to me, that is likely to make it happen more often, not less. So that bothers me.
“Shhhh don’t talk about abuse you’ve suffered because it might bring more abuse”
Do you ever look yourself in the mirror? You keep misrepresenting what other people are saying and being an ass, but in another comment you complain it’s impossible to have a conversation with someone because they are being scornful.
I’m guessing this is why you have a new account; probably banned a lot for being a dick.
I was thinking the same. Some people just enjoy a fight. Triggers adrenaline and such. I do feel bad for them that they don’t have better ways to get happy feels.
I would never leave my girlfriend stranded on a hike. I need her for if there is a bear.
“We need to talk” has now been replaced by “We need to go for a hike.”
I imagine a good way to make your significant other sweat in that region is to leave your hiking boots by the door.
the pair were not exclusive
…
MJ would learn on this trip that her partner was seeing other women
…isn’t that was “not exclusive” means?
Yeah, this is just zoomers not realizing what they’ve signed up for.
Casual partners may still prefer to know if their partner is sleeping with others for a variety of reasons. The first one that comes to mind is health.
Sure. My point is, though, isn’t that already implied by them not being exclusive?
They could be not exclusive but still agree to let the other know when they introduce a new sex partner.
Y’all never heard of safe sex?
I’m shocked by this comment section… Guys defending some POS for leaving their non-committed partner on their own?
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You don’t expect your BF to hook up with someone new mid-mountain.
Actually it says he wasn’t exactly her boyfriend either
Ok so it’s ok to abandon your fuck buddy. TIL
Nobody but you said that that part is OK.
You’re in a thread wondering about thee thread’s confusing description of their relationship status, not about the “leaving her behind” part.
Nobody but you missed the sarcasm. Or the moral behind it.
I was talking about the hooking up mid mountain part, which is what your comment I replied to was primarily about. And the OPs too.
You can just admit you missed that part instead of getting defensive.
I missed nothing. That is not important to the story. When you go into the wilderness with someone, you have formed an inherent defense pact and have a duty of care to each other. Hooking up mid mountain and leaving the other person, regardless of their relationship, is immoral. If harm comes to them, then it was likely illegal.
Your comment wasn’t talking about the “abandoning mid mountain” part. It was talking about the relationship status part. That’s the part I corrected. We weren’t, in this comment chain, talking about the overall story - it was about your comment on their relationship. Stop trying to build a strawman.
Geez, Americans really can’t admit they made even a minor mistake.
Adding you to my block list. Keep your petulant pedantry to yourself.
Uhhhh
“seeing other women” means “not exclusive”
but “not exclusive” does not always mean “seeing other women”
He could be, just as one example of many, very unsuccessful at trying to see other women despite having an existing “nonexclusivity” agreement with her.
“I thought he was only seeing other men!”
yes, but people are emotional and they don’t abide by their own terms
every casual relationship i ever had was never actually casual. it was just full on monogamy with a ‘get out of jail if someone better comes along’ card built in.
Valid, but far from universal. Poly people do exist.
poly people have rules.
Like telling their partners when they have a new sex partner.
This is so fucking sexist.
Hey everyone, women are just as capable of surviving in the mountains as men!
There’s some safety and ethical rules in the mountains. You don’t leave your hiking/climbing partner unless you both agree it’s fine. Gender of this partner doesn’t matter. Guy leaving another guy is equally bad as guy leaving a woman. Women are not inherently more prone to dying in the mountains than men. The fact that everyone treats this as someone abandoning a helpless person is infuriating. It’s shitty behavior but it would be equally shitty if this guy left his male friend or if she left him. It’s 2026, this is fairly progressive space and still everyone looks at with “women need protecting” mindset. It’s mind boggling.
When I see women in the mountains I don’t think to myself “oh my god, they are here without supervision? hope they will be fine!”. Am I the only one?
“It’s such a common thing,” said Julie Ellison, the first female editor-in-chief of Climbing magazine who now works as an outdoor lifestyle photographer. She has heard “so many stories” about men fumbling outdoor dates. “There’s that male ego element to it that’s not necessarily evil or ill-intentioned, but it usually has a negative effect on the partner who’s being left behind.”
But Ellision also says:
Some women in the outdoors industry bridle at the gender stereotypes wrapped up in alpine divorce: chiefly, the assumption that a woman cannot take care of herself or has less experience outside than her male partner. “Believe it or not, we can do things that have nothing to do with men,” said Ellison, the Climbing editor. “I really struggle with saying ‘men do this,’ and ‘women do that,’ and those generalizations.”
Blair Braverman is a writer, adventurer and dogsled musher who has competed in the Iditarod and Kobuk 440. (She took 36th place in the 2019 Iditarod, becoming the first Jewish woman to finish the storied, 1,000-mile (1,609km) race.) “Personally, if I were with a man and he wandered away from me on a mountain, I’d be more worried for him than me,” she said. “I think it’s interesting that [the term] assumes that the woman is the one with less capability.”
So there’s some acknowledgement that women can be just as capable of men in the outdoors, but I agree with you that the article tone is more of “women are helpless out in the wilderness and need a man to protect them”.
Society is very fucking sexist. In my experience (which is a small dataset), unprepared women are more likely to go on a hike with a man than the other way around. Men like to play the provider/protecter role. Women know that. Society has taught women to put themselves in a vulnerable position to appeal to men (movies… constantly). Some women seem to actually want to be “rescued” by thier man as well. Dunno if that is social training or something else. So yeah, it’s very sexist, but it is also a breaking of the social contract, and it is unacceptable. Even is the roles are reversed it would be unacceptable. It’s just less likely to happen.
Dunno if that is social training or something else.
It’s the patriarchy.
In general yes. But is the desire to be “rescued” from the patriachy or is it somehow a leftover instinct from a bygone era that the patriachery reinforces?
The difference being, it’s your fucking partner, and it’s guys doing it. No sexism here, just men being shitty partners. Shame them and move on instead of deflecting.
This isn’t deflection, it’s someone trying to start a deeper conversation. You know, the whole point of a comment section?
Yes, shitty men are shitty partners. Why is being shitty in the mountains different than being shitty anywhere else? All this is assuming that when a couple goes into the mountains men is responsible for women. Which is sexist. Both are adults, both can take care of themselves.
because cultural sexism. that’s why. innocent women must be protected from evil horrible men at all costs!
i bet if this story was about a gay couple you’d have a wildly different set of comments on here. and it would also be different about a lesbian couple.
but since it’s hetereosexual you have everyone projecting their sexism and relationship violence fears and generalizing it into some epidemic.
shitty people are shitty to each other, no matter the relationship. it has little to do with the sex of the people involved.
the truth of the story is probably far more complex and nuanced than is being told, but that would get in the way of the simplified narrative of an innocent woman being abused and neglected by a horrible man, onto which people can morally condemn and project how they’d never do that.
I bet if you looked at the numbers, it happens to ciswomen from cismen a statistically large amount of the time. Like at least three times higher than the others per capita. I mean, that wouldn’t be particularly surprising to me because queer couples tend to have different issues, but I am gonna take a wild shot in the dark and say that you have maybe one queer friend and thus know very little about the relationship dynamics.
I think if your problem is that women are complaining about men is sexist, then you are preemptively trying to shield shitty partner behavior when it’s done by men. To me, that reeks of someone that thinks it’s okay to be abusive to women, which is sort of a shitty person indicator, which, as you indicated, is because you are shitty to others.
I think the main takeaway here is that alpine divorce is an intent to murder. And yeh, it’s sexism. Not exactly in the way you’re putting it tho.
When they abandoned First Nations in Saskatchewan, and one made it back alive to tell people what was happening just like this woman is, the takeaway wasn’t that hey , gee, ya know they can survive being abandoned …it’s that they were abandoned to begin with WITH A VERY SPECIFIC INTENT TO DIE OUT THERE.
I think you not noticing that is the overall disgusting misogyny that society regularly overlooks and minimizes women’s right to life and safety should be considered not just that she can do it herself it’s that no one gives a shit if there was a chance she didn’t survive and how.
This shouldn’t be dismissed or minimized.
I think the main takeaway here is that alpine divorce is an intent to murder.
Assuming that women alone in the mountains will die is the sexist part. There are to aspects of this story:
-
men are breaking up with women in the mountains - if you can prove this is something men do but women don’t it’s a valid take. You can call it ‘alpine divorce’. It’s weird behavior. It would be interesting to learn why it happens (if it a real phenomenon)
-
more experienced hiking partners are leaving less experienced hiking partners alone in the mountains - this is shitty and dangerous no matter the gender. It’s about basic safety in the mountains
Both are valid concerns. It becomes sexists when you combine the two for no reason and assume women are always the less experienced person in the mountains. When I’m reading about it I’m imagining two adults going their way in the mountains. I don’t immediately assume one is responsible for the safety of the other only because of their genders. Because I’m not sexist.
The fuq did i just read. Looks like a manifesto written by a psychopath
Begone stupid bot.
Are you on drugs or something?
-
Yes, it is ethically wrong to leave anyone behind in the wilderness.
What has surfaced in the news more often recently is men doing this to women. Was that not clear from the article?
There was actually a case in Brazil recently where a girl left her male friend alone during a hike, and the guy got lost and stayed 5 days surviving alone in the jungle near the mountain until he was eventually found alive. Almost no news outlet mentions that he was abandoned, but there is a video from the girl who was supposed to be with him saying that she left him behind and out of her sight. No news outlet blamed the woman like they would if the gender roles had been reversed.
What has surfaced in the news more often recently is men doing this to women. Was that not clear from the article?
There was one story from the Alps. That’s it. It looks like someone saw this story and tried to create a new phenomenon looking for stories that will fit the narrative. All assuming that when two adults go into mountains women are universally the ones that can’t take care of themselves and need help and it’s men’s responsibility to provide this help. It’s sexist.
I’ve actually been left alone on a trip before. I was the less experienced one, but I managed. Not trying to play the victim just saying it happens. I’m used to being left behind it’s so ordinary I wouldn’t call the news, (because when women do this to men it would never reach the news, and whyd I’d need this attention anyways)
When women do this to men it doesn’t reach the news.
Yeah, you’re right. I’m always complaining to my Bros how I’m sick of getting left in the woods by women. /s
Come on, why bother with the lie? Why not just paste a nice link to some stats? Get out of here, man.
Everyone I don’t agree with is lying
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Was that not clear from the article?
No one throwing a fit about this article has actually read the article
Yeah, I started reading the other responses… Big oof.
if you do wilderness first aid training, they do in fact tell you to leave people behind, especially in circumstances where it would get them aid faster or in which you staying would further hasten their demise.
but that has no bearing on this story.
Popularity in the news doesn’t equate to reality, any more than everyone saying “5 emails” makes it correct to do so. It just means it’s popular in the news because it sells more ad time.
Popularity in the news doesn’t equate to reality
That’s probably true.
But it makes it weird when a story about women being effectively abandoned in the wilderness elicits responses from (I’m guessing) men who feel targeted without any connection to these events.
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It’s bait.
It’s a story designed to maximize rage engagement… and create gender war rage. and it is incredibly successful. look at the comments in this thread and how many of them are people flaming about how men are evil.
and now dumb people will read this and think there is some CRISIS of all men abandoning women malaciously and broadcast it all over social media or add ‘their stories’ to try and capitalize on the trendiness of it.
and around it goes, until next week everyone forgets about it and moves on to the next rage-bait story.
You’re ignoring the recent criminal case that brings this up as a topic of conversation which is a very real thing that did happen.
How did they establish it’s not also happening at the same rates in other-gendered situations? Seems anecdotal and contrived.
Sounds a lot like whataboutism.
This the same reaction as “men also are abused!”, which is obviously true, hut at much, much lower rates than women.
There is no requirement to establish a pattern of women abandoning men for this article, because it’s not about that.
which is obviously true, hut at much, much lower rates than women.
i take it you’ve manned and run the domestic crisis phone lines and seen this firsthand like i have because my experience is that women get much much more help (because help exists for women, it does not for men). men just report their first experiences, move on without getting the assistance that does not exist for abused men and then do not report any more abuse they suffer.
You want to know the fun thing about your fucking dipshitted lie? If you are a man and you call a domestic crisis phone line, they will still give you resources. Resources for abused men, be they straight, queer, cis, or trans, DOES EXIST. In bigger areas, they will attempt to direct you towards more specific help since there might be groups better geared towards your specific situation, but, like the fact you think that a women’s crisis resource would abandon men in need because they are men is such a fucking sexist lie. They might not be able to offer the same level of help, true. But they are there to help people in domestic abuse situations. Go fuck yourself.
So an article about women being abandoned in the wilderness should somehow evoke the plight of men’s lack of support… What’s the connection between these two?
men report abuse less than women because the support structures are not there for them. it’s like autism and left-handedness. it does not go away simply because you are not looking for it.
Again, I’ll ask wtf that has to do with the article.
It’s not whataboutism, even if it sounds like it.
Primus “I want chicken”
Secundus “What about salmon?”
Primus “Whataboutism! Your claim is invalid you have lost the debate.”
Pro tip: We’re not locked into one topic. We’re allowed to make comparisons, we all do it every day.
Yes, I know you will now say I a gaslighting. You win
It’s sexist in the way that it might depict only women suffering from this type of behavior, but I think that women do tend to be the major demographic that suffers from this type of behavior, which, to me, is a type of sexism that is nowhere near as harmful as the behavior it condemns. It’s not saying they can’t hike.
This type of abuse can happen literally anywhere. You’re out in the city and you’re not walking fast enough? Get ditched with no warning. And that’s the problem. There is usually some modicum of control that the people ditching (you can read this as men) have over the situation that leaves the partner in a vulnerable state. Sometimes they drove. Sometimes they know the way. Sometimes they have the experience. It’s an abuse tactic to do something like that.
So, idk man, calling this sexist and then pretending there’s some unrelated problem to address is a weird take.
Thank you. Weird ass take, I thought we left this shit on Reddit?
When I first moved to Lemmy from Reddit it wasn’t this bad. Now it’s no fucking different than when I worked in a sawmill, surrounded by shitty men.
I recognize your username now that I’ve been on lemmy for a minute and I always appreciate your contributions here <3
This place has a misogyny problem and looks no different than 4chan or early days of Reddit.
So it’s not just me thank you! Shocking to see. Honestly I feel impotent towards it, idk what one can do apart from organizing, and if one is to organize, what to do?
I think we just keep existing and being firm in our points of view. Downvotes from pouty men are a badge of honor now lol
Right back atcha Velma. Always good to have comrads fighting beside you. :)
Some women in the outdoors industry bridle at the gender stereotypes wrapped up in alpine divorce: chiefly, the assumption that a woman cannot take care of herself or has less experience outside than her male partner. “Believe it or not, we can do things that have nothing to do with men,” said Ellison, the Climbing editor. “I really struggle with saying ‘men do this,’ and ‘women do that,’ and those generalizations.”
Blair Braverman is a writer, adventurer and dogsled musher who has competed in the Iditarod and Kobuk 440. (She took 36th place in the 2019 Iditarod, becoming the first Jewish woman to finish the storied, 1,000-mile (1,609km) race.) “Personally, if I were with a man and he wandered away from me on a mountain, I’d be more worried for him than me,” she said. “I think it’s interesting that [the term] assumes that the woman is the one with less capability.”
If there is a feminist spin on alpine divorce, it’s what comes after the women are left behind. When her ex ditched her in Zion, MJ hiked alongside a friendly female stranger and her young son. Naomi helped the woman with vertigo in Arches. “It happened to me many years ago,” one user wrote in the comment section of the viral TikTok clip. “I met 2 girls on the mountain and told them what happened, and we walked down together. They wouldn’t let me go alone.”
The article also goes into this aspect of the conversation.
So some women in the industry agree with me. Good, I was starting to think everyone is sexist. I hated the excerpt so much I didn’t read the entire article. Nice to see they also covered it.
You should really read the article before you get all upset about how sexist it is.
I was referring more to the concept the article was talking about and the general attitude in comments under this and other similar posts as being sexist. It’s good that this article is somehow better at covering it but this doesn’t change how most people react to those stories.
It could have bolstered your argument if you had actually read the article before spouting off.
At the end of the day, it’s just women noting to others another way men can choose to abuse. It’s just another way for women to keep each other safe by sharing our stories.
Ok, I guess I didn’t consider leaving someone to hike alone abuse because in my experience women are perfectly capable of hiking alone. It’s like saying that leaving someone to shop alone in a mall is abuse. If it’s actually reasonable to assume women need male companion in the mountains then you’re right, it’s not sexists.
You’re ignoring the subtly to these stories - in a lot of cases, these women’s male partners were more experienced, were carrying more supplies, or were otherwise more prepared for going into the wilderness. So there’s an additional layer of danger when these men decide for whatever reason to leave behind their less experienced partner.
A shop is not the same as a hike in the wilderness. People do have different levels of experience and preparedness.
Reading the article would have shone a light on this for you.
You’re overlooking that men tend to be attracted to this sort of activity more and may have greater experience. When they invite their inexperienced girlfriend, they have a duty of care towards them. You’re right, sex doesn’t matter and this could be reversed, but you need to ask yourself where the statistic lie.
This is not sexist. You’ve found the wrong conclusion.
Many of the women described having some level of dependence on their partner in nature. They may not have been carrying the right supplies or enough water, or were not familiar with the terrain, making them feel vulnerable.
“It’s such a common thing,” said Julie Ellison, the first female editor-in-chief of Climbing magazine who now works as an outdoor lifestyle photographer. She has heard “so many stories” about men fumbling outdoor dates. “There’s that male ego element to it that’s not necessarily evil or ill-intentioned, but it usually has a negative effect on the partner who’s being left behind.”
Yep! Also touched on in the article.
men tend to be attracted to this sort of activity more and may have greater experience
I live in hiking prime area. This is not true in any way.
This is why anecdotal evidence has little use in the real world.
Men historically outnumber women hikers, but the split is relatively close. Like 55-57% of hikers are men with women and non-binary making up the rest.
Not enough to suggest the “men are innately better hikers” thing the person I was replying to was alluding to.
You’re overlooking that men tend to be attracted to this sort of activity more and may have greater experience.
They didn’t suggest men are innately better hikers. They literally said men are attracted to this hobby in larger numbers and tend to have more experience doing it.
men are attracted to this hobby in larger numbers and tend to have more experience doing it
That’s my point. I call bullshit on that.
The gender breakdown of avid hikers results in more men than women hiking. About 55-57% of hikers are men.
I’m really not trying to like argue with you or anything, I just think you’re misreading what they meant. There are more men that hike than women statistically.
Yes but the story of MJ doesn’t talk about experience. It’s just talks about gender.
because it’s rage bait. It’s not about hiking, it’s about men being awful to women and fanning the flames of gender war rage.
fanning the flames of gender war rage.
Seeing as that’s you doing it I would think it’s only you who can stop it.
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You don’t have to read or participate in these posts, y’know.
You don’t want to be here and we don’t want you here - just leave.
Poor you. Why don’t you just block me then? It might help with your rage problem.
The fact you think calling people out on their shit is rage, is very telling.
Disagreement isn’t rage, but when you live in a world of sensationalized articles for ‘news’, no doubt that is the lens through which you view the world.
Women need to stop putting their faith in shitty men.
God forbid shitty men are told to be less shitty.
They’re told that all the time and they don’t listen or care because they are shitty.
Everyone who rewards their shitty behavior encourages it.
As does everyone who ignores their shitty behaviour.
I will say that us women get pretty fucking tired of often being the only ones to speak up tho.
You need to teach each other how to recognize these predators so you stop falling prey to their tactics.
Personally, I don’t hang around shitbags so I don’t have an opportunity to tell them what they’re doing is wrong in any way that might matter to them. I’ve been saying this guy is trash this entire time.
What do you think the purpose of sharing stories like in the article is?
But men are very upset in here that women are talking about these stories. That it doesn’t happen enough for women to talk about it. That it’s sexist to share stories of the type of men who take these actions.
Women share stories, women gossip, women look out for each other in these ways all the time. We have to work together to protect ourselves from predatory men all the time.
Golly gee, thank you SO FUCKING MUCH for telling us that we need to teach each other. How would us silly women have ever thought of that if YOU didn’t tell us?
Yes. We really need more men to call each other out for this shit.
But somehow, all of the messaging to convince men to raise the floor have somehow been received as an attack on manhood when in reality, the results would benefit both men and women immensely.
We really need more men to call each other out for this shit.
It’s complete hypocrisy to direct this criticism at men specifically, given things like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3PgH86OyEM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEZH6YSQvwA
Return to reality. For one thing, the bystander effect is gender-neutral, so encouraging people to speak up when they witness mistreatment of others, regardless of the sex of either the perpetrator, the victim, or the witness, is inarguably positive. But singling out the sex that is demonstrably most likely to intervene when the opposite sex is witnessed being mistreated, as if males are the only ones that need to be ‘called out’ for non-intervention, does nothing but expose an extremely-obvious bias.
Equality looks like oppression to men because they benefit from how society is now. They don’t care that women are blamed for how they act, they want to continue to oppress women for their own gain.
I feel like men teaching other men to grieve “losses” of male advantages is just one of many tactics used to spread anti-equality attitudes.
But yes, I agree. Many see “removal of unfair advantage” as “losing” instead of “rebalancing.” Not sure why you are getting downvoted for it.
Because I’ve pissed off some of the men in this thread and they’ve gone through and downvoted a lot of my comments. Meh.
I feel like men teaching other men to grieve “losses” of male advantages is just one of many tactics used to spread anti-equality attitudes.
Well said
A person can do both. But my words of don’t be shitty won’t carry as much weight as them not getting laid. So both is a far more effective choice then only one.
I will also add two more. Women should stop having babies with shitty men, as they don’t teach thier sons not to be shitty, and men who get women pregnant need to step up and make sure thier son’s don’t grow up to be shitty men.It’s much more complicated than that. If only it were only this easy.
So many get rose colored glasses in early stage dating. We often become our best versions of ourselves, or… project the best versions, early in dating.
Then once comfortable, the gaurd comes down, the truth of who they are comes to light, and people get hurt. Often though, now heart strings are in place, and … name a worse duo, people pleasers/selfish people.
Yes yes, it’s all women’s fault that men are shitty. Thanks for enlightening me!
So saying both can be true now equals only one is true? I guess 2 + 2 = 5 as well.
shitty men are more attractive than not shitty men, because shitty men are willing to do whatever it takes to get the girl, and then dump her on a mountain top.
shitty men are also really good at hiding how shitty they are, until they stop hiding it… and what a more perfect place to stop hiding it, than in the middle of no where with few witnesses.
so are shitty women.
most shitty people aren’t going to be shitty in public, they wait until you are in a vulnerable moment.
most shitty people aren’t going to be shitty in public, they wait until you are in a vulnerable moment.
Yeah they do. Ive known abuse from a few different, expierences, and it is always covert abuse. Kind people in front of others, mean/cruel behind closed doors. That how it can go on for so long and people can get trapped in these kinds of relationships. Sucks.
Yes, and it’s how you get gaslit. Because everyone else thinks they are so wonderful, so if you think there is an issue, it must be you that is problematic one…
people focus way way too much on superficial bullshit. I had a few friends who fell into that trap and had super abusive partners, and I myself fell into it, thankfully not as badly though. And the abusers frame the entire think as your fault. If only you’d listen to them and make them happy, then they wouldn’t’ have to hit you…
factsssssss.
I know you were arguing with another on here about trying therapy (I know finding a therapist you like can take years, like, its annoying I know), but Ive been in a couple abusive situations. One long term, and one three years; what it took to move forward was a lot of internal work, and ironically, finding self esteem. The two main things that helped control the external, were firstly, being selective about who I let in my circle, and more importantly, second, finding a good therapist I respected/trusted. This is what helped in healing from those expierences. Im raising a rape baby. Like, I have to go continually to make sure Im being a good mom, and don’t let the past dictate my future.
One of my group mates in my therapy art group, is an older man, who is very quiet. Last week we were just us two and the therapist. He opened up, he’s trauma from both war and his father. Has nighmares and intrusive thoughts. We were disscussing what it means to think back about all these painful memories. Because, they come up, I can’t take a shower without music for instance, because it’s like an isolation tank and my brain can go… wierd places… but anyway, the therapist said she heard something once, that when we are thinking of the past, and all these bad memmories… it is actually, a really lonely place to be. That we are the only ones there, in that past memory at that moment. It’s lonely on that road.
Idk, it hit pretty good in session that day.
Lmao, I think most shitty people tend to be pretty fucking obvious. That’s sort of why people have common red flags. Like not dating people who talk down to others or who badmouth servers or who vote Republican. Because those warning signs don’t usually come out of nowhere, but I will grant that sometimes, rarely, shitty people do hide themselves.
I don’t think they are obvious at all.
See, when my wife starts to walk too slow I usually just grumble a bunch, then take everything she had with her, grab her hand, then tow her along.
That way she gets some help going faster, I know when I’m going too fast and can slow down, so when we finally get to the mountain top it’s easier to throw her off instead of having to chase her while she runs away screaming for help…
I’m just gonna say it, if you want to break up with your girlfriend don’t be a dick about it.
“Don’t go on a hike with someone you don’t trust.” All you little boys in here victim blaming need to be checked.
Got back into the dating world recently and was pretty surprised to learn that respectfully communicating your feelings about things afterwards is apparently rare. People need to grow up.
Ever since social media took over, dating and relationship rates have plummeted.
The amount and stuntedness of emotionally stunted immature men is only going up with social media…everything
what so hard about breaking over a text even, even if its a little insensitive.
