cross-posted from: https://hexbear.net/post/7671573
Sweden knew Canada’s Marc Kennedy was a notorious cheater.
So they set up a camera at the ‘hog line’ to record it.
And caught him doing it at the Olympics.
If anyone’s interested in the world curling statement, here. Basically, umpire decisions in the moment are final and cannot be changed from video evidence, the thrower may retouch the stone as many times as they want before the line, BUT they must release the stone from the handle. So a little bit dubious? But they can’t change it even with video evidence.
Not really a good look for us. Would rather our athletes not cheat on an international stage representing our country. Play by the rules or not at all. Thank you very much.
I trust whatever committee they have at the Olympics to make the judgement on this, but if our team is cheating, fuck those guys.
Yes, there’s some redactionist arguments about how it “doesn’t actually impact the rock,” but fuck that. We have a codified rule that specifically says you can’t do it, and these athletes are playing at literally the highest level that exists. They know better and have had time to practice better. If they’re cheating at the Olympics, I hope it follows them forever.
If it doesn’t impact the rock, then why do they risk breaking the rules to do it?
It can prevent over-rotation of the rock. He knew exactly what he was doing.
Because extreme cases can impact the rock. Barely touching the rock in the way caught on film realistically isn’t impacting the rock, but the rule needs to exist to prevent someone from actively pushing the rock after letting go.
But again, these guys know better and have had the time and resources to train better.
ok, but we are talking about a sport that is using brooms to micro melt the ice, and on a molecular level changing how the rotation changes the direction of this rock… someone touching the rock seems much more impactful
Fair enough. I realize now that I spoke with more confidence on the reality of the situation than I intended. Any avid curler I’ve spoken with regarding this in the last couple days swears up and down that the level of interaction that supposidly occurred between the curler and the rock is genuinely a non-factor. I do not know from any level of personal experience, hence why I stated that I trust whatever Olympic panel exists. I merely wanted to counter the poor argument that “the rule wouldn’t exist if it can’t impact the rock,” as the rule can absolutely exist for the purpose of more clear cut cases.
Armchair analysis is rarely worth taking seriously. I suspect that neither of us actually know from experience, but maybe you’re a professional curler.
Send them on an all expenses paid trip to America as punishment!
Woah dude, chill
Of fuck that’s a war crime.
Even worse not just to America but specifically New Jersey, undeniably the worst part of America
Even in the turn of the 31st century is it still not livable: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsqHEmMao8w
Did we learn nothing from Men With Brooms?!
I am disgusted. Appalled. Normally that would also turn me on but in this case I find the actions too morally reprehensible.
For anyone struggling with why this is a big deal* it’s like if you were playing billiards and nudged the ball after you made the shot because you didn’t like the angle of the shot, it kind of ruins the whole point
* lol, I mean, for curling at least
…if said billiard ball weighed 40 lbs.
A little finger poke ain’t gonna do shit.
But, the rules are the rules.
the primary method of playing the game involves melting a microscopic layer of ice to alter the trajectory of the 40lbs rock….
A little finger poke ain’t gonna do shit.
a slight drag will prevent over -rotation of the stone.
Regardless, it’s a fucking rule.
I have said several time that I have no problem with the rule being enforced.
a slight drag will prevent over -rotation of the stone.
I really don’t think so, especially the light touch that I’ve seen on video (which, to be fair, was Homan’s throw on the women’s side). Again, these things are damn heavy, and you’re not going to push them around with a finger without making a visible effort.
A tiny finger poke makes a ton of difference apparently, which is precisely why it’s forbidden. You’ve got a 45 meter long track, small adjustments matter a lot. Though honestly I cannot believe I am letting myself getting worked up over fucking curling.
I guess it’s just the reaction to people cheating at the highest competitive levels and then have the gall to be fucking abrasive assholes about it.
Having curled myself, I can assure you it does not…and if it did make a difference, it would almost certainly be negative, since you’re giving up any semblance of control that you had on the actual throw. There’s not going to be some “precision poke” that magically steers it where it needs to go. But don’t take my word for it.
Does it make any difference?
“No. The double-touching that I’ve seen has been incidental contact, and that’s fingers brushing or hand brushing on a 40-pound piece of granite,” said Eugene Hritzuk, a Canadian curler based in Saskatoon who has been involved in competitive curling and coaching for more than 60 years.
“What can fingers brushing against a 40-pound piece of granite do in any event? You need the palm on your hand against that stone to do anything.”
Delivering a stone entails acute skills to slide on line and on pace, he said.
Once sliding on target and at the right speed, releasing the stone and then touching it with any force would cause it to veer off its intended line and speed, Hritzuk said. “That would not be advantageous to good execution.”
Canadian curling commentator John Cullen, who hosted the CBC podcast Broomgate: A Curling Scandal, said most top curlers will say that double-touching has no effect on the stone.
As well, most top curlers will double-touch at times and don’t think it’s a foul, he said.
“The idea that a top curler would let a rock go and then want to try to adjust it with their finger —it doesn’t seem like there’s any way you could get an advantage from that. It feels like it would be worse.”
But as I said, the rules are the rules, and I don’t think it’s wrong to enforce them.
What can fingers brushing against a 40-pound piece of granite do in any event?
This is a fun little physics problem.
The CoF of a curling stone on ice appears to be between .006 and .016 depending on fast its sliding.
So with a CoF of .006 that 40lb chunk of granite has an effective weight of just four ounces relative to that same chunk of granite at a CoF of 1. With a CoF of .016 it’s relative weight is 9 ounces.
So if the finger brush is in either the X or Y axis then basically anything more than what it takes to press a key on your keyboard will have an effect.
Trying to stop the stone from rotating is a whole different matter because then you’re working against it’s stored inertia and that will be much much higher. No way to calculate that though unless you know it’s rate of spin.
Having curled myself,
dude…people do this when they over-rotate the stone after letting go of the handle. It’s not about steering or momentum forward. a slight drag will reduce the rotation.
There is no reason to be pointing a finger on release.
I would love to see someone go to a curling rink and demonstrate this this is remotely possible.
There is no reason to be pointing a finger on release.
I completely agree. There is absolutely no reason to do it, because there is no chance it will do anything.
It’s strange then how this is a common strategy among cheaters in curling, and that it is exactly what the Canadian team is known for, and it is illegal to do for precisely that reason.
I’ve been watching the curling through these Olympics, and after this was done there were reports that other nations teams also have claimed to have done this before, and that they don’t think it requires extreme policing like the Swedish team suggested. The latter half of their argument led me to believe it happens a lot more than we knew before this incident and they’d rather this not become a constant issue. Sounds like the Swedish team has been trying to accuse the Canadian team of this for a few years now, and have gotten a reputation internationally about it as sore losers.
So it’s only “what the Canadian team is known for” because of the swearing response, and the fact it was broadcast everywhere after Swedish media blew up about it, and why they only had umpires watching as of the next day. It seems like the rest of the world doesn’t care about this, and is more upset about the aggressive response (which I think everyone can agree with)
this is a common strategy among cheaters in curling
Very confidently stated, but I really don’t think it is.
it is illegal to do for precisely that reason.
It’s illegal because it’s way simpler to implement a “no touching” rule than to try to define game-changing and non game-changing touches in a way that would be enforceable.
And again, I have absolutely no problem with the rule being enforced, even though I don’t think for a hot second that it impacted the game.
I can’t imagine why people think it wouldn’t have an effect. This is a sport where brooms have an effect. Why wouldn’t a push have an effect? And if it had no effect why do they do it?
The brooms affect the ice in front of the rock, which changes the rock’s behaviour as it moves over the swept patch. You have to exert quite a bit of force to push the rock directly.
And if it had no effect why do they do it?
Sometimes by accident, I’m sure. And probably more relevant, sometimes out of sheer laziness.
Alright. If you are gonna argue that was an accident then you just aren’t someone worth discussing things with. My god…
Ah let’s be honest here… That was neither laziness nor accidental.
Look, I find extending a finger to give the stone a boop after release completely baffling…but there’s no chance at all that it affected the trajectory of the thing. You might as well “cheat” by blowing on it.
Accident? He’s done it multiple times. The women’s team did it too.
Yeah, as the article I linked indicated, a lot of players simply don’t consider it an infraction, and therefore don’t give a damn whether they do it.
And for probably the fifth time, I have no problem with the rule being enforced.
I think he thought the boop was going to do something. It was entirely deliberate. The guy clearly cheated.
That does seem like solid proof
Yes, but the Canadians threw a hissyfit shouting “Fuck off!” repeatedly at the Swedes during the match. They later went to Swedish newspapers accusing the Swedes of staging a conspiracy against them.
Those mooseknuckleheads should have been disqualified from the match for their shitty behaviour.
We’re not sending our best [to the Olympics] :(
Yep not impressed with this display of poor sportsmanship
During the whole thing I was just picturing these curling nerds saying that shit to my face and how that’d go down lol.
and how that’d go down lol.
What, getting your ass beat half to death by Olympian athletes?
Hear hear we got a badass over here.
Yes I am a violent drug addicted criminal, I don’t know maybe you’re a nice kid in school and wear shirts and stuff but around my hood we don’t.
…but around my hood we don’t.
Lol, this is so stupid. Why?
You realize we are not in your hood
And it was available for review right there right then. But we can’t use cameras in sports, because apparently that would ruin sports, for some reason. Oh, and except when they literally use them to measure stuff like who’s over the finish line first, or inside a line, or outside a line, or measure things down to 1/10000th of a second, and literally film every single moment of every event from every imaginable angle. BUT NOT FOR THIS. Because it would ruin the sport, all sports.
Its a snapshot, he could have released this handle and retracted his hand with his finger off to side of the tangent of the rock. Wed need frames before and after for better review
Well in the slowed video it totally looks intentional https://youtu.be/W1yh6GN5ysks
I believe they’ve been caught three times at minimum now, and for all I know more now by today. The men’s team was caught twice and the women’s team was got once.
Wait… As a non-sportsperson, what’s the drama here?
There is a line after which they are no longer allowed to touch the stone. The handles on the stone have sensors on it, to detect a touch after the line and call foul. But the Canadians touched the stone itself, not the handles. Which isn’t a legal move, but isn’t automatically detected. And with how they did it, the refs didn’t see it right away.
Edit: Correction, it doesn’t actually matter if it’s before or after the hog line, once the handle is released on the stone nobody is allowed to touch it anymore. The release has to be before the hog line, but there is no touching after that regardless of where the stone is.
The rules are silent on touching the stone. They are clear about not touching the handle. I don’t disagree with you, but the granite is not the handle.
In that shot, he is still before the hog line, but regardless still not allowed to touch that part of the stone. Touching it there should have zero effect on the actual throw, but it’s still illegal
It looks like hes either trying to nudge it over a touch or a put a bit of spin on it. He wouldn’t risk cheating at the Olympics with a method that has zero effect.
“Sports”… haha, good one.
“On second thought it is a silly sport, let’s not go there.”
That’s cheap anti-Western propaganda provided by hexbear.
I mean, fuck Hexbear, but this is in fact all over the news. I’m sure it’s posted there in an anti-west bias, but that doesn’t make it untrue, and I absolutely demand better from my country than to cheat at the Olympics.
And then there is this angle that shows he holds his finger beside the rock after release.
The “gotcha” photo has his finger buried internally in the rock, seeing this other angle shows his finger beside the rock, but from a different angle would appear to be touching it.
Not as clear cut as they want you to believe.
There’s a middle ground between “completely innocent” and “massive cheats”. I think it’s possible that the Canadians have all trained in a technique where they release the rock and then point, and the Swedes use a different release technique. When the Canadians do it, it could lead to them sometimes accidentally brushing the rock with their fingers. If it happens it might mean that they broke the rules and that that rock should be removed (or whatever it is they do), but it doesn’t mean that they’re intentionally cheating.
It really looks like they’re poking the rock with their fingers, why else would they point like that? But, I’ve seen enough people talking about the biomechanics of sports that I know that sometimes something that seems dumb like pointing might just be how they ensure that their bodies are aligned exactly the same way every time. It’s like how the Olympic pistol shooters have this weird posture with their hands in their pockets.
The pictures are from different throws. Here the person is wearing long sleeves, and the person in the “gotcha” picture is wearing short sleeves.
The point still stands. The ‘gotcha’ picture doesn’t show he’s touching the rock, his finger could be behind. And it’s all fuzzy anyway. And more importantly, he got the official win regardless. Olympic athletes are always pushing the boundaries of the rules to get the edge - it’s part of the tradition.
Different shirt, different handle color
