- cross-posted to:
- privacy@programming.dev
- cross-posted to:
- privacy@programming.dev
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However, we don’t have a “hardened security” approach, we aren’t developing a phone for pedo(censored) so they can evade justice.
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“anyone who wants privacy from their government is a pedophile” is a hell of a stance…
Honestly by now it’s becoming reasonable to assume “projection” as a baseline, to then change based on evidence, when someone has a take like this guy’s.
I don’t mean the political tactic, just the garden-variety kind of projection. “Probably ~everyone thinks the way I do, and boy, we better not give everyone the tools to act on that…”
Deeply wrong about how most folks think, because of how they themselves do, and believing they’re therefore helping. Likewise a self-admission, because they don’t realize they’re admitting anything.
Maybe not the case with this guy, I’m not gonna dive in.
But I do sincerely believe that’s a somewhat charitable take toward anyone making a claim like this today. Charitable in the sense of acknowledging a misunderstanding and desire to help.
The less charitable one being - just obviously complicit. Fuck this noise.
the privatized western govts & their tech boys literally are the infrastructure of the global pedos it’s asinine & dangerous to tell people to ignore that!
“Why did you lock your doors, what did you steal?”
More like, “Why did you lock your doors, are you diddling kids?”
The stereotype of pedophiles in cop shows is that they use desktop computers anyway, not phones. Don’t know how true to reality that is though.
I think it’s fair they support way more phones than GrapheneOS, even if the security is way worse. But it’s a whole other thing to call people who want secure phones pedophiles.
I am skeptical how worthwile it is to use /e/os over OEM Android at this point
Well, you get a superiour privacy and security by just debloating a device via ADB.
You keep access to non-verified apps no matter what Google wants since it uses microG.
It’s openness vs security.
Agree with your outlook, but I think it’s not too farfetched to give the benefit of the doubt to the speaker here and establish that pedophiles were used as an example (of people whose survival depends on their data not being breached), rather than a direct comparison. And he goes on to name being an executive to the secret services as another example (again, of people to whom hardened security of data is an imperative), but we’re not saying he thinks secure phones are just for people in secret services, are we?
He’s just saying, albeit rather clumsily, that their goal is simply not that level of hardened security, but rather privacy from data miners.
I think both approaches are too extreme. Supporting every device leads to poor security, poor stability, and therefore a poor user experience, but only supporting just Google devices (while there is a good reason for that) is a step too far for most people.
If I were in the position of e/os I’d just support probably three manufacturers. Going through the major ones that I know of: Motorola and Google are obvious picks. Next would need to be something cheap and popular. Samsung is way out of the question. Xiaomi and Vivo I’ve never seen their phones mentioned outside of China (which is a country that generally doesn’t have the same privacy considerations as people in the west do). That leaves Oneplus and Tecno Mobile for the third model.
CalyxOS (when it existed) supported Fairphone, Motorola (some) and Pixel.
The full translation of the clip of Gaël Duval provided by GrapheneOS:
There’s the attack surface, on that front we’re not security specialists here, so I couldn’t answer you precisely, but from the discussions I’ve had, it seems that everything we do reduces attack surface.
However, we don’t have a “hardened security” approach, we aren’t developing a phone for pedo(censored) so they can evade justice. So there aren’t difficult things to check if the memory is corrupted, really hardened security stuff that could clearly be useful for executives, in the secret service, or whatever.
That’s not our goal, our goal is to start from an observation: today our personal data is constantly being plundered and that wouldn’t be legal in real life with the mail or the telephone, we want to change that. So we are making you a product that changes that by default for anyone.
As a french speaker, I can attest that the translation is fairly accurate.
While I don’t agree with the characterisation Gaël Duval makes here, I believe the statement from GrapheneOS here:
Duval and his organizations have consistently taken a stance against protecting users from exploits. In this video, he once again claims protecting against exploits is for only useful pedophiles and spies.
Is a bit disingenuous. It sounds like they do make some efforts to secure their device, but it’s not their main focus. Theirs is to improve privacy first and foremost.
I would take anything GrapheneOS devs says with a grain of salt, as we all know that they have quite an adversarial relationship with… well… everyone. But especially other OS makers.
It sounds like they do make some efforts to secure their device, but it’s not their main focus. Theirs is to improve privacy first and foremost.
I don’t have any issue with that: different OSes have different priorities and that’s okay. However, I feel like he’s basically saying that users of hardened secure devices are pedos, and I have a very big issue with that. I don’t know if maybe in French it doesn’t sound that way, but the English translation does for me.
That’s how it sounds. So, I’m a pedophile because I run GrapheneOS on my phone? I guess I better tell my wife, and my kids.
… and my kids
“Hey Kiddos! So I have some good news and some bad news…”
Kind of shameful of /e/ to blatantly disregard user privacy like that. Is Graphene our last stand against Orwellian surveillance?
i honestly dont care much about privacy in the sense that i dont rlly need it to be provided by an OS, just give me max freedom and let me handle privacy myself. That being said I am on grapheneOS atm but still hoping for librephone to enable me to have an arch linux like phone experience that i can customize to hell
That would be really cool.
Lmao what a toxic piece of shit
Privacy is something everyone deserves, not something only criminals want
I can’t believes he’s intentionally anti-privacy. Occam’s razor suggests he’s instead a fucking idiot.
Yeah maybe. But whether it’s intentional or not, I would not want to use /e/os.
But also, from the linked thread:
Murena is a for-profit company owned by shareholders including Gaël Duval. /e/ has a non-profit organization which is also led by Gaël Duval. /e/ includes paid services from Murena. /e/ very clearly exists to build products for Murena to sell in order to enrich the shareholders.
Despite being done for profit, /e/ receives millions of euros in funding from the EU on an ongoing basis. /e/ and Murena use extraordinarily inaccurate marketing to not only promote their products/services but also to mislead people about GrapheneOS and scare them away from it.
From @grapheneos.org
Graphene made an OS only for Google phones. I can see what they mean here, but not sure they have room to talk regardless of the security circumstances.
It is shitty if there was a smear campaign against them though.
Oh agreed. I wouldn’t want to install an OS from a fucking idiot either.
(And I take your point that said idiot may also be a dishonest slime ball.)
I can see how one can interpret it like that, but it’s not how I read what he said. I think the point he’s trying to make is that hardened security protects the user from attacks, yes, but their focus is to provide services that can be trusted not to attack the user. He said: “really hardened security stuff that could clearly be useful for executives, in the secret service, or whatever. That’s not our goal”
I mean, I use GrapheneOS on my phone, but do I personally need all the hardened security? Not really. It’s nice theoretically, but mainly I’m just happy the OS itself isn’t spying on me. I’m personally not very worried about an evil maid attack or state level spying.
Pedophiles use their work emails and gmail. Making a secure phone OS won’t make a difference.
Please provide the video with the question included. This looks cut to fit the anti murena narrative that GrapheneOS has been screaming about for years. It’s the same tactic Republicans use against others: cutting only a bit that sounds bad when taken out of context.
Another quote from the thread
Their marketing heavily focuses on avoiding Google and gives the impression they believe privacy means avoiding one company. Meanwhile, they add a bunch of Google services not present in the Android Open Source Project and give extensive privileged access to Google apps/services.
From @grapheneos.org
Recently, France’s national law enforcement began fearmongering about GrapheneOS and smearing it with inaccurate claims. France’s corporate and state media heavily participated. Many articles and also radio/television coverage misrepresented GrapheneOS as being for criminals.
From @grapheneos.org
It was already debunked. A single french tabloid (not true journal) featured why graphene was used by criminals. It’s not the government that was specifically targetting it by all means it had.
A fine endorsement.
What priveledged access? I only found one call home from MicroG, and it was easily disabled.
Been a while since I used microG but I remember the Google registration specifically being opt-in. Then again, I also remember reading that /e/OS automatically enables it, so…
some people in this thread still dont get it, so:
you cant expect privacy while also having poor security practices. ideally you’d have both and most of these privacy projects are not much more than just a lineage fork with a dns blocker
apparently in duval’s mind, you can always trust even a fascist government to never try to exploit your phone and to give you privacy. or something idk
Well, that’ll be another 100€ December donation to GrapheneOS.
Interesting conversation with GrapheneOS. Didn’t know they essentially hate each other. I’m using e/os but just because I cannot run graphene on my device.
GrapheneOS’s leadership hates basically any other ROM. If you say something negative about GrapheneOS, he will probably call you out as part of CalyxOS team in a hate raid party, or something of the like.
They make an amazing OS, but you’re better off not giving them much attention in their constant drama.
Calling others on their bullshit does not equal hating on them. Why do you think CalyxOS had to ‘take a break’? Why do you think that The only thing these ‘privacy’ focused OSs can do about GrapheneOS is say it’s geared towards criminals? They have no other way to try and smear them because they’re all garbage in comparison.
Get your shit straight. GrapheneOS is so fucking awesome that they plugged an actual Linux kernel hole within hours of it being found, whereas it took Google weeks, never mind these Murena and Calyx morons.
… bullshit … criminals … smear … garbage … get your shit straight … morons.
more expletives, than sentences; this reads like it was written by micay himself. lol
People curse. Get over it. Just goes to show that you don’t have anything to say about the actual point of their comment when you clutch pearls like that.
I wouldn’t be surprised if there is more that one sockpuppet to be quite honest, they just cannot grow tf up.
i’m inclined to believe that the continuous barrage of hate lobbied their way makes them reactionary because they lack the discipline that typifies rightist beliefts; they could accomplish A LOT MORE if they copied pages from the leftist playbooks where public engagement is concerned.
You’re finally getting it. Good.
We’ve known that /e/os is anti security/privacy look at all their attacks on grapheneos
I’ve not seen this though GrapheneOS has repeatedly belittled /e/os. As others in this thread have noted the propensity to repeatedly attack other projects is the biggest failing of GOS. As a user it does little more than leave me funding PostmarketOS while biding time for a proper linux solution.
GrapheneOS only points out (very bluntly tbf) the fact that /e/os and other “privacy” focused os don’t keep up with critical security patches and actually makes users less private and secure due to this. I think saying that GrapheneOS belittled /e/os is a little much considering the amount of missinformation/attacks that people from /e/os and Murena have been doing accross social media. I mean you see it here calling “hardened security approach” is for pedos/criminals very extreme language which does genuine harm to projects like GrapheneOS. Their Unified Attestation project is just a way for them (/e/os, murena etc) to control which apps can run on which device when GrapheneOS supports hardware attestation which would allow (afaik) apps to verify on the hardware level to ensure the security of apps. Read this thread on their mastodon, they routinely have to defend themselves on social media from a mountain of misinformation and disinformation you should read some of the other posts on their mastodon.
Considering I’ve had my own posts deleted during the last round of admin meltdowns here on the fediverse I have seen all I need to of GOS’s leadership antics, thank you very much.
which instances did that?
grapheneos@lemmy.ml
https://a.lemmy.world/lemmy.world/comment/21010858
I spoke out about the persecution complex of the management and got shut down, like-minded sentiment be damned I guess. We can see the sycophancy here also, Stallman save us from such small minds…
the mod’s reasoning is sus at best and makes this community feel like it’s captured by reactionaries.
For context, for those in the anglosphere, Graphene OS had some troubles in France because the government portrayed the users of the OS as majority criminals, like narcos and including pedos. They left the French market.
Occam’s razor would lead one to believe Gael is not talking to users but to shareholders and the government, where he mentions pedos, which is the soup du jour to go after privacy.
Now, why is this being spread by GOS without context? Easy, they just entered a deal with Motorola, and creating an environment where people hate the competition is a very profitable endeavour for GOS. Finally, Mikay should get help, he’s impossibly technically endowed but also facing some demons that push GOS into unsavoury practices.
Finally, Motorola produces a panoply of devices for LEA, if you think a for profit company will not leverage their deal with GOS to sell a bypass device to law enforcement agencies and have the monopoly on that market you are out of your goddamn mind. The truth is /e/ doesn’t purport to sell a private OS, they sell an OS with less tracking. Graphene advertises a fully “private” OS but then enters a deal with one of biggest cop suppliers in the world and not a word on how that compromises their promise of security for users.
There’s only one way to be really safe, a 0 trust model where you don’t use your phone as a reliable communicator.
Finally, Motorola produces a panoply of devices for LEA, if you think a for profit company will not leverage their deal with GOS to sell a bypass device to law enforcement agencies and have the monopoly on that market you are out of your goddamn mind.
You realise that Motorola Solutions (that make stuff for law enforcement agencies) and Motorola Mobility (that make phones) are two completely seperate companies?
Motorola Mobility is a wholly owned subsidiary of Lenovo.
They have nothing to do with eachother beyond just the brand. Motorola Mobility dont even own the rights to the name or logo. They have to license the brand from Motorola Solutions.
You realise that Motorola Solutions (that make stuff for law enforcement agencies) and Motorola Mobility (that make phones) are two completely seperate companies?
I didn’t. Good catch. The original point stands though, given Lenovo’s history, business practices and their collaboration with LEA, it’s just the holding company that changes.
that push GOS into unsavoury practices.
Can you elaborate on this?
i. e.
Deal with Motorola to make bank before “they” get to him.
Desperate attempts at portraying himself as victim of persecution.
FUD on other AOSP projects.
Incredibly weak response
