- cross-posted to:
- html@programming.dev
You must log in or # to comment.
Good developers can write websites that have non javascript fallbacks.
For example, a form to save settings with a save button, but when javascript loads it hides the save button and makes it automatically save when you toggle options.
I hate this cursed timeline where even finding out the opening hours of a restaurant needs to load half a dozen frameworks.
I hate the padded aesthetic of everything. Like I use an old.reddit clone on lemmy cuz I just wanna access the content ffs.
JavaScript has been my favorite language for a decade. Still, I try to make websites server-rendered so that they can be read if my code fails to load or execute. For example, there are power outages in Ukrainian cities for most of the day because of the war. When there’s no power, there’s still 4G for a while but it switches to economic mode and slows down to a crawl. The websites of the monopolist energy company require a lot of JavaScript. It often fails to load for me during the outage. It’s also not keyboard-accessible because of how its JS is implemented (I won’t image I’d do better, they have a team while I’m a solo programmer, but I try and they don’t). For me to see when there will be electricity at what place and plan where to go study and work, I have to rent a VPS, scrape their website and show me a static table that doesn’t require JS to load. Some code to see what I mean: https://codeberg.org/nykula/powerup
I remember when webservers served content, and didn’t just pass me megabytes of bloated spaghetti and say “here, YOU run this.”
Static pages are fine if you don’t want to interact with them. Books have been around since the 1400s.
But they won’t let you search a whole book for particular name, place, term. Or take your input and calculate answers for you? Or let you create music or art? etc. etc.
You don’t need that to search. In fact, you send the search query and get the response back.
Yes, they let you search the term, it’s called asking the librarian to tell you which page.
Forms that send a post request to the server and the server serves you the page with the answer is how it works. Ajax is cool, sure, but don’t tell us lies, or don’t talk with confidence without knowing.
You ask the librarian how often the word “arrow” is in Lord of the Rings, and they have to tell you?
Not sure what your point is, but that functionality could be built into a website without running any code clientside.
My whole comment was that I’m not sure what the point is, because that’s not how it works in reality. So if you actually want to know, you’ll have to ask the author of the comment above me.
I was trying to make the best of what I could with the bad example they provided…
But as they already responded you, before Ajax was a thing term searches were done via forms. I still state that it has it’s uses, but let’s not pretend like the universe was born with javascript.
But if the best of what you can do with it doesn’t make sense, then why do it? It’s not like it’s helping, just distracting from the parts that DO work.
And kind of the same thing again: The universe wasn’t born with forms, either.
When we did a project for a redesign of our web app at work, when I showed stuff to the UXer he said “I see this is designed by a programmer. Because a programmer says: But it works.”
And indeed, that is how all of the comments I read here feel; that things like a denounced search are just irrelevant toys, instead of a solid part of the toolkit of a professional modern developer.
Y’all forget about forms? And, uh, programs?
I remember doing indexes in html with hyperlinks
Nope. Fuck your site.
Got to disagree there. Websites should work without js. Sure it shouldn’t have fancy animations or whatever but I should be able to read it.
Depends on what kind of website we are talking about.
If it’s a website whose purpose to display an article or images or similar, I agree with you.
If its main purpose is something that requires interaction by the user (i.e. it’s a “web app”), then it’s not a reasonable expectation that it should work without JS, and then I agree with the OP.
Even “web apps” don’t necessarily need javascript. Is a forum a web app? It has plenty of user interaction and forums without javascript have existed since before HTML. Even stuff like Mastodon doesn’t necessarily need javascript, it can work as static pages.
If its main purpose is something that requires interaction by the user (i.e. it’s a “web app”), then it’s not a reasonable expectation that it should work without JS, and then I agree with the OP.
Web apps predate JavaScript by many years. The kids writing websites these days just don’t know how.
This woman is part of the problem of the current internet. There are only a few sites that make sense to only work with JS enabled and federated social media is NOT one of those. Wanna know why? Because all the JS bullshit is just to make shit “pretty”. The data isn’t - rather, should NOT - reside entirely in the JS.
EDIT - To make matters worse, the site in question is this - https://bestestmotherfucking.website/ ; which is “inspired” by Motherfucking Website and Better Fucking Website. I’m thinking this is just trolling and we fell for it
To make it “pretty”? That’s more CSS I would say, and JS would be more about UX.
Which I haven’t seen anybody here mention. Which is kinda giving antisocial nerds with hobby projects? I mean, in professional development you learn very quickly how ux is correlated to helpdesk tickets.
Like, we can talk about technical purity excercises all day, but code doesn’t exist for its own sake.
So if for any chance you can’t use JS (outdated browser, outdated system, text-based browser, JS disabled by an admin, JS won’t load, assistive technology) then… it’s your fault?
- outdated browser - your fault, and a foolish thing to use considering the modern, online threat landscape
- outdated system - your fault, and like above you probably shouldn’t connect to the internet with that thing
- text-based browser - your fault, and it shouldn’t surprise anyone that websites break when you use a browser that misses major functionality
- JS disabled by an admin - your admin’s fault. Go complain to them, not to anyone else
- JS won’t load - depends on reason for why JS fails to load
- assistive technology - depends on the reason; your assistive software may be broken or misconfigured, or the website fails to follow best practice
Braille interpreters (think a row of nubs that raises up the relevant letter as it “reads” the page) used to have issues with some webpages unless you accessed them via text based browsers. No idea if they still struggle as much but text based browsing will always have a function and place
So, if a webpage fails to load of Firefox it’s our fault for not using Chrome? Following your logic.
Well, if we’ re following my logic, like you claim, then it depends on why the page is failing to load in Firefox: Are you using an outdated version of Firefox or on an outdated system? Is Firefox missing major functionality? Has your admin disabled major functionality in Firefox? Won’t some part of the website load in Firefox and if so, why? Are you using assistive technology in Firefox and if so, is it broken, misconfigured, or does the website not follow best practice?
If it is for another reason, then it obviously depends on that reason
Nono, you expect people to use the most used versions of the tools. Firefox has such a low usage that using the “Firefox version” of the “browser” tool can be interpreted as using an “outdated tool”. You clearly don’t, and neither do I, but some people put the line in a different place than you do and I don’t think it’s fair to say it’s their fault for it.
Sure, for webpages where the objective is to have advanced functionality I do get it, but for news/blog posts, documentation, government pages that should be as robust as possible… There are paces where accessibility of “outdated” tools must be considered.
text-based browsers must be first-class
ad-hoc browsers must be first-class
the harder it is to haphazardly spin up a web browser, the more monopolistic it is
