I mean, that’s definitely not a false dichotomy, that’s a real dichotomy…fixing it does not destroy it and destroying it doesn’t fix it…they’re definitely mutually exclusive lol
And I agree, the american left is cooked, no doubt. I used to be an energized organizer and I am pretty burned out. Call it lazy if you like! Still, no matter how much energy I have i’m not wasting any of it on bourgeois party politics, supporting one heinous future or another.
Okay. Well first I apologize for lumping you in with the edge lords.
So the false dichotomy is that the system functioning as designed requires the entire thing to be destroyed.
The usa is a system in which the american people are the most powerful and fundamental of the checks and balances. However Americans have checked out and stopped participating. The system is working, it’s Americans that need to do their part.
I deal with violence as a profession. So I have grave concerns about the ability of Americans to successfully destroy the system, and even graver concerns about the ability to rebuild institutions after the fact.
Why would billionaires destroy a system designed to serve them that’s impervious to the will of the working class? IMO the “destroy the system” people have both given up and are playing right into the Epstein Class’ hand.
Hmm, I think you may have missed the point of the meme? Your point 1 seems to just be an articulation of the first panel (a liberal idealist perspective: “the system is broken, we need to fix it”). If the second panel isn’t clear (the left materialist perspective), maybe this helps.
1 Power to the people
The statement “the system is working as intended” is to point out that our only two options are two bourgeois classes, both hellbent on exploiting working people as much as possible. There cannot be other options…this is the system. It’s working as intended…it was intended to be a committee of the bourgeoisie to arrange their affairs, and it serves that function fine, whether the American people turn up to “legitimize” it with their rubber stamp approving of Bourgeois Party A or Bourgeois Party B, or stay home. It doesn’t really matter. It doesn’t matter whether it’s trump or Obama or Reagan or FDR. All of them represent the system continuing to work as intended: a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. The people’s lack of power is intended.
2 Violence
If you deal with violence, you probably know how unbelievably expensive state violence is. It requires bullets and bombs, it requires food and clothing, it requires administration and healthcare. These are things that can only be provided by the working class. Destroying the system is unquestionably possible, the question is, what’s the cost, and is it worth it?
Rebuilding, is an issue too, for sure. That’s why dual power and organization are so important! Though I’d be pretty surprised if the struggle of destroying the system wouldn’t create the organization necessary to rebuild.
3 Billionaires?
The billionaires would not destroy such a system? I’m not sure what you mean by this point…the system is great for them…and I don’t just mean under trump, it’s been great for them the whole time (and always will be - which is why destroying it is correct and “fixing” it is not)
Yeah, I mean, that’s fine. I think that your knee-jerk reaction is negative shows that we have a real disagreement :P I’m not trying to be pedantic about the “false dichotomy” thing!
Forget all that; let’s talk about the more interesting question of whether the system is designed to support the people, and therefore must be fixed, or if it’s designed to oppress the people, and therefore must be destroyed.
I think that’s really what you wanted to respond to, right?
“The system” isn’t designed. It’s a patchwork of interests, causes and effects. The meme is a false dichotomy in that the system isn’t categorically functional or dysfunctional and the notion that parts of it being repressive doesn’t preclude repairing institutions that are salvageable.
Its great you guys can hodgepodge some first year economic theory with a surface level of military concepts to convince yourselves and a few people on reddit.
But I’m not convinced you guys know wtf you’re talking about and genuinely think you’re all talk and no follow through.
I’m not sure what to say to the idea that the system isn’t designed. Like…surely you don’t deny that the electoral system is created by the bourgeoisie in the bourgeoisie’s interest? Sure they have fights with each other…finance vs industry, etc. The world is a complicated place. But those differences clearly don’t stop them working together when it matters (protecting property).
Sure, you might take out the refrigerator before knocking down a decrepit house, but when the construction is unsound, the fact that some parts may be salvageable is not a reason to try to fix it rather than knock it down.
And as for Marxists being nobodies, obviously true in the imperial core since…well a long time. But you’ve heard of the USSR, the PRC, Vietnam, Cuba, etc? It’s not first year economic theory being bandied about on Reddit, and they’ve got some serious follow through haha
the fact that some parts may be salvageable is not a reason to try to fix it rather than knock it down.
No but the people still living there are. Thats the part you guys always forget is that you’re literally asking people to sacrifice their vulnerable loved ones for your half baked ‘solution’.
But you’ve heard of the USSR, the PRC, Vietnam, Cuba, etc?
USSR - 300+ years of Romonov Monarchy before Russian Revolution
PRC - 2000 years of Qing Dynasty before Xinhai Revoluiton
Vietnam - Imperial rule followed by French/Japanese occupation until being partitioned after US occupation
Cuba - A Spanish colony for 400+ years that failed to gain independence despite several revolts before the Spanish-American war.
Even citing those in this conversation deeply discredits your argument in my mind. Never mind drawing straight line comparisons between societies with decades/centuries of autocracy to our poorly utilized but still functional democracies.
False dichotomy.
Besides, if Americans are too lazy to vote they certainty wont revolt. Especially revolution edge lords. You guys are the laziest.
I mean, that’s definitely not a false dichotomy, that’s a real dichotomy…fixing it does not destroy it and destroying it doesn’t fix it…they’re definitely mutually exclusive lol
And I agree, the american left is cooked, no doubt. I used to be an energized organizer and I am pretty burned out. Call it lazy if you like! Still, no matter how much energy I have i’m not wasting any of it on bourgeois party politics, supporting one heinous future or another.
Okay. Well first I apologize for lumping you in with the edge lords.
So the false dichotomy is that the system functioning as designed requires the entire thing to be destroyed.
The usa is a system in which the american people are the most powerful and fundamental of the checks and balances. However Americans have checked out and stopped participating. The system is working, it’s Americans that need to do their part.
I deal with violence as a profession. So I have grave concerns about the ability of Americans to successfully destroy the system, and even graver concerns about the ability to rebuild institutions after the fact.
Why would billionaires destroy a system designed to serve them that’s impervious to the will of the working class? IMO the “destroy the system” people have both given up and are playing right into the Epstein Class’ hand.
Hmm, I think you may have missed the point of the meme? Your point 1 seems to just be an articulation of the first panel (a liberal idealist perspective: “the system is broken, we need to fix it”). If the second panel isn’t clear (the left materialist perspective), maybe this helps.
1 Power to the people
The statement “the system is working as intended” is to point out that our only two options are two bourgeois classes, both hellbent on exploiting working people as much as possible. There cannot be other options…this is the system. It’s working as intended…it was intended to be a committee of the bourgeoisie to arrange their affairs, and it serves that function fine, whether the American people turn up to “legitimize” it with their rubber stamp approving of Bourgeois Party A or Bourgeois Party B, or stay home. It doesn’t really matter. It doesn’t matter whether it’s trump or Obama or Reagan or FDR. All of them represent the system continuing to work as intended: a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. The people’s lack of power is intended.
2 Violence
If you deal with violence, you probably know how unbelievably expensive state violence is. It requires bullets and bombs, it requires food and clothing, it requires administration and healthcare. These are things that can only be provided by the working class. Destroying the system is unquestionably possible, the question is, what’s the cost, and is it worth it?
Rebuilding, is an issue too, for sure. That’s why dual power and organization are so important! Though I’d be pretty surprised if the struggle of destroying the system wouldn’t create the organization necessary to rebuild.
3 Billionaires?
The billionaires would not destroy such a system? I’m not sure what you mean by this point…the system is great for them…and I don’t just mean under trump, it’s been great for them the whole time (and always will be - which is why destroying it is correct and “fixing” it is not)
I was 100% knee jerk reacting to your meme.
Yeah, I mean, that’s fine. I think that your knee-jerk reaction is negative shows that we have a real disagreement :P I’m not trying to be pedantic about the “false dichotomy” thing!
Forget all that; let’s talk about the more interesting question of whether the system is designed to support the people, and therefore must be fixed, or if it’s designed to oppress the people, and therefore must be destroyed.
I think that’s really what you wanted to respond to, right?
“The system” isn’t designed. It’s a patchwork of interests, causes and effects. The meme is a false dichotomy in that the system isn’t categorically functional or dysfunctional and the notion that parts of it being repressive doesn’t preclude repairing institutions that are salvageable.
Its great you guys can hodgepodge some first year economic theory with a surface level of military concepts to convince yourselves and a few people on reddit.
But I’m not convinced you guys know wtf you’re talking about and genuinely think you’re all talk and no follow through.
I’m not sure what to say to the idea that the system isn’t designed. Like…surely you don’t deny that the electoral system is created by the bourgeoisie in the bourgeoisie’s interest? Sure they have fights with each other…finance vs industry, etc. The world is a complicated place. But those differences clearly don’t stop them working together when it matters (protecting property).
Sure, you might take out the refrigerator before knocking down a decrepit house, but when the construction is unsound, the fact that some parts may be salvageable is not a reason to try to fix it rather than knock it down.
And as for Marxists being nobodies, obviously true in the imperial core since…well a long time. But you’ve heard of the USSR, the PRC, Vietnam, Cuba, etc? It’s not first year economic theory being bandied about on Reddit, and they’ve got some serious follow through haha
Who’s design? Certainly not King George III’s.
No but the people still living there are. Thats the part you guys always forget is that you’re literally asking people to sacrifice their vulnerable loved ones for your half baked ‘solution’.
USSR - 300+ years of Romonov Monarchy before Russian Revolution
PRC - 2000 years of Qing Dynasty before Xinhai Revoluiton
Vietnam - Imperial rule followed by French/Japanese occupation until being partitioned after US occupation
Cuba - A Spanish colony for 400+ years that failed to gain independence despite several revolts before the Spanish-American war.
Even citing those in this conversation deeply discredits your argument in my mind. Never mind drawing straight line comparisons between societies with decades/centuries of autocracy to our poorly utilized but still functional democracies.