I hope she beats this.
I’m rooting for her!
The age old question: does the law also protect people that make us feel a certain kind of way?
Highly editorialized headline. The court is going to decide whether or not her pursuing the bigots that verbally attacked her, which escalated to physical violence and her drawing a firearm, is justified.
This is tough. How does one stand up for themseleves and not prepare for the original aggressors to potentially escalate to physical harm? Would pepper spray have been allowed? A stun gun? What if those options did not deter the aggressors?
“Turn the other cheek” is something the oppressors say to the marginalized.
At the same time, I’d prefer to not have a rando pull a gun on me during a heated argument/attack. I don’t see myself crossing the street to confront a group of people, especially in the current times we live in. But it’s hard to blame someone for having enough of it.
But yeah, let’s say it’s about whether trans people have rights in Wyoming, rather than having the nuanced discussion of what happened.
Was ok when George Zimmerman did it. And he didn’t even get attacked.
Well, he had a bloody nose and very light wounds on the back of his head, something must’ve happened, but he also illegally pursued Trayvon in any case.
But that said, just because some people get away with a crime doesn’t mean you’ll be protected if you commit it, DAs and juries are all different.
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Are transgender women not people?
This isn’t the question being asked here. They are arguing whether or not her walking up to people yelling bigoted slurs at her, before she was pushed to the ground, which caused her to pull a gun on them, was an action of incitement, because the other people stayed across the street from her, and did not approach. Whichever way you think this case should favor, or if it is bullshit or not, it is not about whether or not trans people count as people under the law according to the stand your ground laws. It is asking whether bigoted slurs alone count as violent incitement, because approaching someone aggressively already can.
I was going off the headline.
But if she was pushed to the ground, as you say, that’s more than enough cause to stand one’s ground.
Like, literally.
I was going off the headline.
Why contribute to something that you didn’t take the time to read about?
Same reason as you.
But I did read the article?
She went across the street to confront a group of assholes. That sounds like a Darwin Award right there. Then got pushed down and then the group tried to leave again but she pulled the gun.
This is all on her. Though I’m unsure about felony charges if the gun is registered. They don’t mention if it is.
She went across the street to confront a group of assholes. That sounds like a Darwin Award right there.
Your comment implies that you think she deserved to die for standing up against bigotry.
No not what I want to imply. But there is a certain amount of self preservation at work here. You don’t challenge a group of actively aggressive people head on. Had she not felt brave thanks to the gun I suspect she would have stayed where she was. Mad and rightly so, but fine
You know what? I don’t care. No one should.
You should, legally and morally, be able to give the what for to a group of bigots without physical recourse. I don’t care if its stupid for physical safety reasons or not.
Just because you did it with a concealed weapon doesn’t mean you should immediately loose your right to defend yourself.
Literally the argument is about her starting the altercation, but these dudes both fucked with her first, then put their hands on her first.
If she was the right type-a person, and those men weren’t, my $10 says this would probably be an open and shut case.
Say what you will about .ml users, but at least most of you understand the paradox of tolerance, and that hate speech is inherently a threat of violence.
Personally, I think she may have done a good thing. She is not the only victim. If other would-be bigots learn not to spout hateful bullshit, she has helped more people than herself.
Admittedly, I was not there. It’s possible she was looking for an excuse, but that’s not the impression I get from the story.
You think it’s okay to shoot people because they don’t support transgenderism?
You think it’s okay to shoot people because they don’t support transgenderism?
No, that’s not remotely what anyone said. I think it’s acceptable for a person to defend themselves.
She was understandably afraid after being pushed to the ground. Nobody got shot.
Kelver, while still on her back, allegedly pulled out a .380-caliber semiautomatic handgun, racked it, and pointed it at Durham. She put the gun away after Durham and his group walked away, then returned to her job at the Crowbar & Grille, according to the prosecution.
A judge will decide…
Rihanna Kelver has maintained that Scott Durham hurled anti-trans slurs and pushed her to the ground outside the Crowbar & Grille in Laramie before she pulled out a gun. Still, police arrested Kelver on charges including aggravated assault and possession of a deadly weapon with unlawful intent.
Is normal. In every self defense case you can absolutely EXPECT to be jailed until you’re arraigned at your hearing, and possibly until you’re cleared entirely. MAYBE the DA declines to bring charges, but probably not, unless it’s a clear break in, in a castle doctrine state, though it does happen (for all the smartasses about to post “b-b-b-but this case.”) Yeah, not every DA is the same person, and it even depends on if they’re having a good day or not.
While Wyoming has a “stand your ground” law allowing individuals to defend themselves if they reasonably believe they face an imminent threat, prosecutors have argued that the law does not apply because Kelver allegedly started the altercation.
Yes. SYG and CD laws offer some protection for self defense, but, it is still advisable to attempt deescalation when possible. You’d rather that than this literal exact scenario. It’s supposed to be your absolute last resort. No, just because there are some miscarriages of justice, that does not mean you should try and test it, unless you’re fine with gambling on 25 to life I guess.
According to court testimony, Kelver was sitting on a bench outside the bar on September 13 when Durham and a small group of friends shouted derogatory slurs. Surveillance video shows that she then followed the group across the street before approaching Durham with a hand on her satchel, according to the Laramie Boomerang. The video then shows Durham shoving her to the ground before beginning to walk away.
Ok, not looking good. “Words were exchanged” ok, call them something back. “Got up, followed…across the street” now you’re edging into escalation. “Hand on the satchel,” dude honestly a good lawyer may be able to argue premeditation on that at this point, real bad look. “…before beginning to walk away,” legally a retreat, not “threat of death or great bodily injury” which is the prerequisite standard for using lethal force. That’s REAL bad for your case. Your gun isn’t supposed to be punitive, once they start leaving and “the encounter™” is over, that’s it, you have to call the cops.
Kelver, while still on her back, allegedly pulled out a .380-caliber semiautomatic handgun, racked it, and pointed it at Durham. She put the gun away after Durham and his group walked away, then returned to her job at the Crowbar & Grille, according to the prosecution.
Honestly? I’m not mad at it. No shots fired, just brandishing? Tbh brandishing should be more legal than it is, depending on the situation. THAT SAID: because of the whole “they 100% ‘legally’ escalated it” thing? This is a toughy. It’s 100% not currently legal, tbf, but should it be? Honestly, idk, this one still might fall outside of “acceptable” to me, but it’s pretty fucking close to the line. The crossing the street to continue the issue and pulling it while he’s walking away are tough to reconcile though, honestly.
Transgender people are disproportionately likely to become victims of violent crime.
Very true, but by following the aggressors across a street, you’re putting yourself in more danger. It becomes hard to argue you feared for your life when you walked towards them, make them come to you, then you have an easier case.
After investigators determined that she had drawn a loaded gun, prosecutors charged her with felony aggravated assault and battery, felony possession of a deadly weapon with unlawful intent, and misdemeanor interference with a peace officer.
Alright well that’s a little much. Still, the headline here is that she’s being overcharged, she 100% broke the standard of self defense that applies to even me, the “untouchable” white cis male. Call it brandishing and leave it at that.
The government has maintained that Kelver initiated the confrontation by approaching Durham while keeping her hand on the satchel containing the gun.
Called it. They’d do the same to me, a cis white malw, this is a part of the standard for self defense. This is (part of) why I always advise newcomers “it isn’t enough just to buy one, you need to learn the local laws regarding use of force.” It’s VERY easy to find yourself in a bad case.
Andrew Holcomb, Kelver’s attorney, disputed that characterization. “When Ms. Kelver heard targeted slurs, heard threats, then was shoved to the ground, her fear did not come from nowhere,” Holcomb said. “It came from the circumstances.”
I know nobody here wants to hear it, but here’s the prosecutor’s inevitable response:
When Ms. Kelver heard targeted slurs, heard threats,
She went towards the aggressor, not away.
then was shoved to the ground
After walking towards the aggression
her fear did not come from nowhere,” Holcomb said. “It came from the circumstances.”
That she placed herself in by walking towards the fight to continue it, rather than deescalating.
That WILL be what the prosecution uses, and she WILL be convicted just like I would unless the jury can be… well… fooled.
Ah the age old problem of women randomly pulling guns on people. Happens all the time… In pathetic people’s minds.
A company is a person. An AI is a pers… What? A transsexual? No way! Let’s figure that out in court right away! /s