Welcome again to everybody. Make yourself at home. In the time-honoured tradition of our group, here is the weekly discussion thread.
☭ Matrix homeserver and space
☭ Theory discussion group on /c/theory@lemmygrad.ml
☭ Find theory on ProleWiki, marxists.org, Anna’s Archive
I’m critical of religion but Islamophobia is so rampant and vile lately, that I find myself becoming Allah’s most faithful servant when arguing with people over it.
theres an anticommunist poster of islamist bolsheviks that makes me giggle, like its obviously a way to frame islam in a way similar to ‘judeo-bolshevism’, but ill be damned if i dont want to hang it up without any irony whenever i see islamophobia
So in an ironic sort of way like how anti-Musk protestors spray-painted Tesla cars with nazi symbols because he was a nazi?
no not really. i don’t think the example you give is ironic at all. to me it’s more like someone disparaging communists as “woke pro abortion gay trans stalinists” and youre like hell ya, i am a woke pro abortion gay trans stalinist. well, like, i may not be trans or gay but i would still be like, that’s not bad! so what! then i might call myself tjat semi ironicallu since its intended as a perjorative but i dont mean it that way i mean it like im awesome
But what does that have to do with hanging up the poster?
the same way you might jokingly reclaim the term “evil gay satanist stalinist” i’m reclaiming the idea of being an “islamist bolshevik” :3 does that make sense?
I guess? Are you a muslim, if you do not mind me asking?
no. but given the way the religion is demonized currently in the west, somewhat unfairly since their critiques lie with the “hamas terrorists” (to a lesser extent they used the pretense of gender and feminism as justification but that’s fallen away nowadays) and political radicals in islam, when people mock islam from that pov, i feel more inclined to stand in defense of those viewpoints of “radical islamists”, the radicals who are more like iranians making correct geopolitical analysis and saying that they should rally under allah to demolish the evils of zionism and the USA.
i believe also in demolishing zionism n the usa not because of religion, but since ppl belittle those that are religious that happen to have the correct take, i’m like fuck it sure i’m a radical jihadist that hates the usa, even though the reasons for my stance are not actually religious
Oh I see. Basically, you make libservantives angry and stuff :>
And the most riduculous facts is that the Islamophobic people in the Western world are the one who is encouraging the spread of Islam. By repeatedly demonstrating their hypocrisy, self-contradiction, and self-serving narcissism, they are making their opposition sound more righteous. They keep on claiming that they are just and righteous without doubt by exaggerating their benevolent deeds against a crisis and hiding the fact their contribution to the very crisis that they claimed to solve. They still did not mention that the Indian Residenatial fake schools are the blueprint of the Nazi death camps or that the ongoing forced imprisonment, planned starvation, planned chemical attacks, and planned attacks by thugs in the federal reserves inspired the concentration camps. They also deny the facts that the “cultural degration” of their new generations were the product of the crimes from the older generations.
One thing I’ve been doing lots is pointing out that the six pointed star and the cross are graven images so zionists and most christians are idol worshipers which is against the first commandment.
That’s not what an idol is.
Idols, in the context of ancient West Asian polytheism, were conduits of divine energy trapped into physical objects to be manipulated by mortals. The idea was that the gods’ power was captured into a specific vessel which could then be used to bestow gifts and blessings. Ancient Jews objected to this practice because, in their theology, you cannot overpower God and seize his power for yourself and thus idolatry was a blasphemous practice. As understanding of traditional pagan practices in the region faded this understanding was lost, which led to aniconism/iconoclasm driven by a misunderstanding of any religious symbolism & imagery as being inherently idolatrous (imbued with divine power).
This is why those heresies largely failed and why it is acceptable for modern Christians and Jews to use symbols like the Star of David and the Cross: they aren’t idols. They are powerful symbols, yes, but there is no divine power captured within; they are simply man-made symbols of faith and have no mystical properties whatsoever.
If there is only one god and he doesn’t like idols then no graven image has divine power in it. The commandment isn’t “don’t worship objects or images that have gods in them because they don’t actually have gods in them” it is “don’t make images or objects to symbolize god because they are not god” The fabrication of the images is the sin.
Try desecrating a cross or six pointed star in front of a believer and then tell me they aren’t worshiping the image. Try wearing an inverted cross into a church and watch the swarm come to get you out.
I think you misunderstood.
The practice of idolatry in Mesopotamia, Phoenicia, etc. involved the creation of images in the shape of deities in the belief that they contained the captured essence of those deities. Early Judaism prohibited followers from imitating these practices with Yahweh. The image in question is “graven” specifically because it was understood to have divine power encased within it. There was no distinction between the physical object and the power that allegedly resided within; they were regarded as one and the same. This is why the prohibition on idolatry exists in Judeochristian tradition.
Failure to understand this was the entire reason the controversy of aniconism/iconoclasm arose and why the iconoclasts argument lost that struggle and why Christians and Jews are permitted to have symbols they consider sacred: because they’re not idols. Desecrating these images is of course going to be met with offense; you’re literally insulting their faith through desecration of sacred images. Why would they not be offended? But this isn’t the same thing as idolatry, which is a very specific form of worship that Jews and Christians (and Muslims as well) don’t observe. You’re interpreting the word “image” literally without understanding the context in which the scripture was written, which is exactly what the iconoclasts did and what Biblical Literalists today do.
There are better examples of hypocrisy among organized religion that aren’t rooted in Literalism, which I should point out is not the majority interpretation among most Christian sects (I can’t speak for Jewish sects here, admittedly) nor has it ever been.
No I understand the argument I just reject it as an overly complicated attempt to justify something that seems pretty cut and dry.
That only makes sense if you look at theology from an idealist perspective.
But much like everything else in human society theology is subject to material conditions. Context is thus crucial for understanding why certain practices exist. In this case the “argument” does not exist to justify the practice or the scripture but to explain why the scripture exists by pointing to the material conditions in which it arose: said conditions being the development of Judaism from a polytheistic religion, to a henotheistic religion, to a monotheistic religion and the consolidation of power behind the priesthood of Yahweh and their drive to distinguish themselves from their neighbors and their god not as an equal to other gods but as superior to other gods and eventually as the only real god that exists.
It’s all dialectics, baby.
You can’t apply Historical materialism to myth. You can’t cite historical context when nobody can be sure when the commandments were written. The oldest know copy of the ten commandments is from like 200 bce between a 900 and 1400 years after they were supposedly written.
The point of calling zioinist christians and people of Jewish heritage idol worshipers is not to engage with them in a serious discussion because they are idealists and spiritualists. You can’t talk to them in materialist terms. The point of it is to harm their psyche by saying the foundational principle of their faith has been corrupted by the institutions they follow.
You can, in fact, apply historical materialism to myth. A myth is an idea and ideas materially exist and are capable of shaping the world and people in it as a consequence. This is especially true when they become the physical practices or written laws of religions that were/are followed by millions/billions of people.
I can, in fact, cite historical context because the practice of idolatry existed throughout the entire period you just covered and would not begin to fully be erased from West Asia until Christianization swept away the old pagan religions - and even then it likely persisted in secret and in rural communities for centuries after the fact. You make it sound like the Fertile Crescent is some lost period of history. We know about Sumer, Babylon, Assyria, Phoenicia, Canaan, Israel, the Nabateans, the various dynasties of Egypt, the Sea Peoples, the Hittites, Urartu, the Medes, Elam, Akkad, etc. There’s an entire meme around a coppersmith scamming his customers that only exists because we found his customer complaint tablets buried in his fucking house for Christ’s sake. This isn’t some vague unknown; we have a pretty good idea of how people in the region lived 4,000-5,000 years ago. Don’t confuse your own ignorance of the region’s history for the collective ignorance of the human race. People have dedicated their whole lives to studying this shit and we are constantly learning more and more through their extensive efforts.
There are plenty of real criticisms of the many hypocrisies in Christianity and Judaism that you can use to rile up zealots and fundamentalists that don’t require this cringe reddit atheism you’re doing.
And some Christians really do believe that crosses have divine magical powers.
“well how else am I supposed to repel vampires?”
Garlic bread.